From: Chad Martin <chad@t...> Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 5:43 am Subject: [NetRep] Rulings Digest #24
I just found this in the rulings by Van that have not been consolidated into the CRF.
"Ruling Digest 586 From: vnorton@m... Subject: Ruling Digest 585 2) If I play a guarded haven on a hidden haven, does that mean the site is never discarded or returned to the location deck? No. It is still discarded normally.
Actually, I find I am incorrect. A card with Hidden Haven and Guarded Haven would be returned to the location deck, not discarded, if there were no companies at the site. Resource cards on the site would be discarded. Sorry if this answer was confusing."
Does your reasoning trump this, or is this correct?
*** No, my reasoning doesn't trump this. A site, tapped or not, will return to the location deck if no companies are at the site and if Chambers in the Royal Court has been played on the site. -------- 1)Can Will Shaken be Marvels Told'ed? I sure hope not or it's a pretty useless card, and kinda takes away from the whole punch of it. We played at the tourney that it couldn't be, but I want to get a ruling for future sake...I would hope the ruling is that it can't be, cause if it could, it kinda guts the whole card.
*** No. -------- 2) Can an agent be Withdrawn in response to Seek without Success and cancel the effect? We ask becuase the condition for Seek without Success is that the agent is discarded, which Withdrawn can do...
*** This answer was provided by Travis Took:
No. The CRF says under Active Conditions: · Annotation 6: If an action requires an entity to be discarded as a condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be discarded when the action is declared; this is considered synonymous with the action's declaration, i.e., it is not a separate action.
So the agent is discarded when Seek without Success is played, so there is no agent in play to be Withdrawn. -------- Can Tom cancel Baduila? e.g. Is Baduila a hazard effect targeting the company?
*** Tom Bombadil reads, in part: "Tap to cancel the effects of one hazard that targets any company, or an entity associated with a company, moving to a site in: Arthedain, Cardolan, Rhudaur, or The Shire." So the question is not whether Baduila is a hazard effect, but rather is Baduila a hazard when used for his company bouncing effect? The answer is yes, so Tom can, in fact, cancel Baduila's company bouncing effect. -------- If a character uses Burglary to get the Ithil Stone, is the number of scouts used to play the ithil stone determined by just the burglarizing character, or the entire company at the site?
*** The entire company is used for the purposes of playing the Ithil Stone. Burglary attempts don't make the burglaring character split from his current company. -------- Spells of the Barrow-wights * Hazard Permanent-event Playable on a character facing an Undead strike. If the strike is successful, target character is not harmed and is taken prisoner at a Ruins & Lairs [R] or Shadow-hold [S]. Character must discard any rings along with his other items. At the start of each of his untap phases, make a body check for that character. Rescue-attack: Undead --- 3 strikes with 8 prowess.
Based on a literal reading, it seems that if the strike against the target character is unsuccessful, SotBw would remain on the character (having no effect -- except not returning to the hazard player's discard to possibly be replayed). Is it true?
*** To quote page 3 of the ME:DM rules insert, under Rescue and the Rescue-attack: "At any point outside of the initial attack or conditions by which a hazard host is played, the hazard host is discarded if there are no imprisoned characters under it."
This means that Spells of the Barrow-wights would be discarded if the undead strike is unsuccessful. -------- Tom can stop Seek without Success, as there is no question that it is a hazard effect, but I am not sure about the B man himself. Agents are not Hazards is a general rule of thumb. Are Agent Actions hazard effect? Are actions able to be performed by agents by themselves hazard effects?
*** Agents, when not played as characters, are referred to as "hazard agents" in the ME:LE rulebook. I can find no other documentation on this subject, so I'm ruling that hazard agents are hazards, and effects caused by them are hazard effects. -------- Can Tom cancel say, the effect of Snowstorm when it targets the company Tom's in?
I'm a bit unsure about if a global effect targets the company when it takes effect...
*** CRF, Rulings by Term, Targets: * A target is an entity that an action is played out through. Enitities are only targets of an action if the action specifies those entities by number and type. Note that "the foo" counts as specifying one "foo." * Annotation 3: Long-events and certain other cards do not have targets because they are not played out through one specific entity, i.e., they generally affect an entire class of things.
Tom cannot cancel Snowstorm's effects since Snowstorm has no target based on the above two CRF entries. -------- Do you have to enter a site in order to store an item there?
*** No. Storing an item happens during the organization phase. You are only considered to have or have not entered the site during the site phase. -------- Can you target for removal a long event that is under Echo of All Joy?
There were 2 opinions in our play group.
(1) Yes, you can. Echo's text is only giving ways to get rid of Echo (& when Echo goes, so goes the long event), not eliminating normal ways of removing resource long events. In this scenario, Echo would then stay out, but have no effect because it wouldn't be targetting anything anymore.
*** This interpretation is correct. -------- I found a ruling that I feel is wrong it is in Ruling Digest 585 ad it goes as follows:
"I played Hidden Haven and Guarded Haven to change a site to a Protected Fallen Wizard Haven. Now I have to discard a Stage card, because of playing Echoes of the Songs. When I removed Hidden Haven, is the site still a Protected Fallen Wizard Haven ? The site is protected, but it is no longer a Wizard Haven. Guarded Haven only provides protection. Hidden Haven only provides the Wizard Haven. You can remove either card but you lose it's effect."
I was under the impression that Hidden Haven cannot be removed unless your companies move from the site. Here are the card's text: Hidden Haven Permanent-event - C4 MP: 0 - Corruption: 0 SP: 1. Playable on a non-Dragon's lair Ruins & Lairs in a Wilderness, Border- land, or Shadow-land ; the site must normally be a Ruins & Lairs. This site becomes one of your Wizardhavens and loses all automatic-attacks. Nothing is considered playable as written on the site card. If one of your companies is at this site, all attacks against it are canceled. Other Fallen-wizards may not use this site as a Wizardhaven. Discard this card when the site is discarded or returned to its location deck. It cannot be discarded otherwise.
*** This ruling is incorrect. As per the text on Hidden Haven, it cannot be removed by Echoes of the Song. -------- In the CRF under Ringwraith Followers it says: When your revealed Ringwraith leaves play without being eliminated, you have until the end of your next organization phase to bring your Ringwraith back into play, and use him to re-control any Ringwraith followers. Otherwise, all Ringwraith followers are discarded.
In the CoE Weekly Rulings/Clarifications 8 Brian ruled: Black Horse says, "Return controller to your hand if Horse leaves play." When the Ringwraith that represents you is returned to your hand in this fashion, his/her Ringwraith followers are discarded along with the cards they control because "a Ringwraith follower must always be under the control of your Ringwraith...".
*** Brian's ruling here is incorrect. As per the CRF, you have until your next organization phase until your Ringwraith followers leave play if your non-follower Ringwraith returns to your hand due his Black Horse leaving play.
Chad Martin chad@t... Official Council of Elrond NetRep http://www.mdi.net/~chscable/elrond.htm Assisted by: Nigel Buckle, Wim Heemskerk and Brian Wong