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CotT: Webs of Fear and Treachery

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:57 pm
by Zarathustra
At first sight, this card seems like nothing special. It's only a long event, and its effect is to cancel all influence modifiers. But let's take a closer look.

Heroes will either play 1 Ring or MP decks. Against the former, this card is useless. Against the latter, it may or may not be useful. Wizards have 10 DI, which means they are unhurt by this card. Elrond's Vilya will not help him in influence attempts, but it will still allow him to control characters and such. Perhaps the most powerful use of this card vs heroes is against Dwarf decks that rely on A Friend or Three / An Unexpected Party to get huge influence boosts for factions and to influence their opponents away. So... some use, but not much.

Against minions, on the other hand, Webs of Fear and Treachery can be quite useful. They have no wizards, so they rely on one of two things for their influencing:

1) The Mouth/the Lieuys,
2) Threats/Gifts/Blazon/other boosters.

Webs will not have much effect on the former strat, which usually has either the Mouth or a Lieuy influencing orc factions up North to create the Great Army of the North (though it does cancel the +1 from Great Army...). Against the latter, however, it completely ruins their game plan. I've found Webs to be incredibly powerful against a host of minion decks, and even if it doesn't do anything, you can at least just drop it on the table to get it out of your hand.

Mark's Rating: 4/8 (vs hero/vs minion).

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:02 pm
by Tegarend
But is it better than a simple on-guarded (or normally played if the influencer is clearly identifiable) Foolish Words, which targets the attempt and not the (possible) influence bonus, is as easily droppable and a lot more permanent?

Once Foolish fills 2-3 slots in my decks, I usually stop the hazards vs factions ... but of course I'm not really that good a deck-builder.

Kris's Rating : 0 (would never play, not if it were the last card on earth) / 4

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:42 pm
by Zarathustra
Sure sure, vs heroes it's largely useless.

I think you're missing some of the perks vs minions though.

1) Webs cancels the effects of Foolish Words. So... you can play Webs as a hero to both hose your opponent's influencing and protect your own (assuming you're using a wizard or some other big guy).

2) Webs can be played against any company and still effect the whole table. So you can unleash all your hazards against the moving company, and then drop Webs vs the squatters, for example.

3) Webs also cancels the negative influence modifications of command cards like I'll report You. So if you play as a minion, you can load your Lieuy up with I'll Report and still have 5 DI vs factions. How 'bout them apples?

I stand by my former ratings. :)

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:50 pm
by Tegarend
Ahhh .... see, it is stuff like that I miss when I look at such a card.

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:46 pm
by Majagua_the_Necromancer
could it be played on guard?  Against hero companies that do rely on a friend or three or orther cards it could be quite helpful, or just to protect that ur big trolls dont get affected by the annoying FW..

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:56 pm
by Konrad Klar
Majagua_the_Necromancer wrote:could it be played on guard?
CRF, Turn Sequence, Site Phase, On-Guard Cards wrote:You may reveal a card in response to an influence attempt against a faction even if the
on-guard card only has an effect if the attempt is successful. You may also reveal a
card in response to such an attempt that affects the actual influence attempt

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:28 pm
by Bandobras Took
The original review ignored perhaps the most vital aspect of this card.
Webs of Fear and Treachery wrote:Except for unused general influence and unused normal direct influence (including influence modifications given in a character's card text), all modifications to each influence attempt are reduced to zero.
Here are a few modifications to influence attempts that this card affect:
· Add the influencing character's unused direct influence.
· Subtract your opponent's unused general influence points.
· Subtract the result of a roll (2D6) made by your opponent.
· Add any other modifications (from cards and special abilities). All modification cards must be played before either player makes a roll.
All influence checks are modified by -5; i.e., it is harder for evil characters to influence the Free Peoples and vice versa.
When building a deck which attempts to influence your opponent's stuff, the roll they make is reduced to zero because it is a modification to the influence attempt.

The flip side, of course, is that you're unable to play helpers, but with a enough normal DI (any Wizard for Heroes or the WK in Heralded Lord (6 Normal DI as listed on his card) for Minions) and the roll, you're in very good shape to get rid of your opponent's stuff.

Especially when, as mentioned above, you're essentially immune to Foolish Words.

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:11 pm
by Leon
Another combination is with Hour of Need:
Hour of Need
Playable on an untapped non-warrior, non-Wizard diplomat during the organization phase if you have a faction in your hand. Play a faction from your hand. Tap diplomat who then makes an influence attempt on this faction. Count out the number of contiguous regions from the diplomat's site to the site where the faction is normally playable (including the regions containing both sites)-subtract two plus this number from the diplomat's attempt. If the attempt is unsuccessful, discard the diplomat and faction.
Am I correct that these effects still work?
Persuasive Words
Diplomat only. Make two rolls (or draw two #'s) when making an influence check and choose one result to use.

Tidings of Death
-1 to each influence check against a faction, but for each influence check make an additional roll (or draw an additional #) and choose which result to use. May also be played as a hero resource.

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:23 pm
by Bandobras Took
The two rolls effect still works as neither modifies the attempt itself.

The -1 from Tidings of Death would not work, however. :)

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:38 am
by Frodo
At Worlds in Barcelona 2009, Mark Alfano ruled (in a strange shift from literal NetRep rulings) that Webs of Fear and Treachery does NOT eliminate the defensive roll an opponent gets when you try to influence away his resource.


Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:11 pm
by Bandobras Took
While this has been discussed on the NetRep forum, a final ruling does not seem to have been published in a digest.

The MELE rules do clearly list the opponent's roll as a modification to the check.

Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:32 pm
by Frodo
It's funny that all the rules people are arguing over whether the character/faction's number is a "modification" if you reduce it by revealing a copy of it. It seemed clear to me by the way the BALROG Rules are worded that this number is the number you are trying to BEAT, and so it is not a modification to the check.

Also, since we are not allowed to post to the Rules forum, here is my two cents: I respect Brian's argument that we need to have clear and literal rulings on cards so as to protect other cards, but I fervently believe that hte balace of the game is much, much more important. So rule on Webs in a way that makes it least broken. If you conclude that this is illogical, then... <gasp> issue erratta on it. Trust me, most of the middle-earth players will THANK you.

That is, those who haven't already *left the game* because of troublesome cards and decks already...


Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:35 pm
by Bandobras Took
Both Wizard's Laughter and Poisonous Despair are excellent counters to Influence decks. &nbsp;In my experience, there are many ways in which an Influence deck can fall down.

Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:57 pm
by Bandobras Took
Just an update:
CoE 124 wrote:6)

When influencing an opponent's resource or character, Webs of Fear and Treachery reduces the opponent's roll to zero. Same applies for the -5 across alignment influencing penalty.