Are there must have cards for a deck

Discuss the way <b>you</b> play (strategy, etc., etc.)

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Zarathustra
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Post by Zarathustra » Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:18 pm

I guess that about sums it up!

Good discussion PallandoTwice! I look forward to playing you sometime, though I fear IRL might be a difficult manoeuver, considering the fact that I live in New Jersey, USA. Perhaps I'll run into you at worlds in the summer!

Mark "River" Alfano ;)

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:35 am

Stealing the One-ring really isn't an option in most of the good One-ring decks I've played against. This is because the ring is normally tested on the final turn at Mount Doom before being destroyed. If the rolls aren't good enough to get the ring then Leaf Brooches are sacrificed instead and the Wizard testing is repeated.

I really think there should be no ring testing allowed in Mordor.

Peter
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Post by Peter » Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:38 am

Jambo wrote:I really think there should be no ring testing allowed in Mordor.
Not such a bad idea. But you need to balance things out a bit then, since One Ring becomes much harder, a +2 to ring tests in Bag End would balance things out a bit again. It gives the Ring decks pretty good odds of getting the Ring out, since a Wizards Test at Bag End with the Scroll of Isildur on a Precious Gold Ring means a 92% (about the chance of rolling a 5 or higher) chance of getting the darn thing out. Even without the Scroll the chance is still 66% on a single test, 88% on a double.

In my humble opinion the difficulty for hero One Ring decks should not be getting the ring out but getting the darn thing to Mount Doom. After all, that's what the whole LotR quest is about. Having Bag End as the prefered test location is both thematically correct (the Ring may be found at the Under-leas, but it was tested at Bag End) and useful in game terms (long travel with enough chances for the opponent to attack).

PS: This has actually been discussed a bit in another thread:
http://www.meccg.net/dforum/viewtopic.php?t=420. I've crossposted this post there, please use that thread for followups, since it's off-topic to this forum.

[Edit: had miscalculated the chances for a roll without the Scroll, fixed now.]

PallandoTwice
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Post by PallandoTwice » Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:38 am

If the One was any easier to get out every deck would play it. It would actually be quite difficult to dump the ring when every oppoennt you play is trying for the One. If your opponent is waiting to go to Mount Doom to test the ring, you can always put the ring out yourself. The One is already incerdibly easy to get into play. I would say making it easier would probably ruin the game altogether. If you don't test the ring until you get to Mount Doom that is a huge stall. Rumours of Rings makes it allot easier for any deck to play the One on you while ou are waiting to go to Mount Doom. I don't think testing at Mount Doom is really unbalanced. To make the ring easier to put into play in the first place however would be very detrimental to the game.

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Post by Peter » Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:58 am

PallandoTwice wrote:If the One was any easier to get out every deck would play it. It would actually be quite difficult to dump the ring when every oppoennt you play is trying for the One. If your opponent is waiting to go to Mount Doom to test the ring, you can always put the ring out yourself. The One is already incerdibly easy to get into play. I would say making it easier would probably ruin the game altogether. If you don't test the ring until you get to Mount Doom that is a huge stall. Rumours of Rings makes it allot easier for any deck to play the One on you while ou are waiting to go to Mount Doom. I don't think testing at Mount Doom is really unbalanced. To make the ring easier to put into play in the first place however would be very detrimental to the game.
Eh, Rumours of Rings doesn't work with the One.

You also seem to misunderstand my intention, I know the +2 on Bag End will make getting out the Ring fairly trivial, but the idea behind the modifiers is that the focus of hero ring decks is shifted from getting out the Ring to getting it to Mount Doom.

If getting the Ring to Mount Doom was a cakewalk I'd fully agree with you that this idea would make One Ring decks too easy. However if it was a cake walk, then why do most One Ring decks go to Mordor before testing, if they would test outside of Mordor the deck speed would increase a lot (since currently most One Ring decks have to gather a lot of rings before testing, if some testing is done when only one ring is in possession the average deck speed would increase).

Also when travelling with the Ring hazards like the Will of the Ring, The Precious and The Ring Will Have But One Master will become very. very dangerous. I think this pretty much cancels out the increased chance of getting the Ring out (and yes, I know, it's possible to dunk the Ring in two turns using Gwaihir, but still it's very dangerous).

PS: Cross-posted this again to the thread in House Rules, please use that one, it's not good to have one discussion spread over multiple threads.

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Post by PallandoTwice » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:46 pm

Actually, rumours of rings does work with the One because it puts the precious gold ring into play which is the improtant part. That means you can play the One with only a two card main deck investment, One/Scroll. So yes, it does worl, just not in the way you were thinking. I didn't mean it brought the wone in from the board. I meant it allowed any deck to easily play the one.

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Post by Jambo » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:37 pm

Gold rings (e.g. precious, beautiful and fair) are gold ring items and are not considered gold ring special items for the purposes of rumours of rings. Therefore, they cannot be placed with rumours of rings like a dwarven ring or magic ring can.

Zarathustra
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Post by Zarathustra » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:05 pm

And are you really going to waste one of your two minor items to play Rumors of Rings in a deck that doesn't collect rings?

PallandoTwice
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Post by PallandoTwice » Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:26 pm

Hi again. Been away from access for a while. I have a question.
What prevents me from leaving Elrond at Mount Doom and preventing the actual dump? (Gollem's Fate, Cracks of Doom) My turn steal ring?

Also Snowstorm, Inner Cunning/Baduila sends your opponent back to their previous ste allowing you to try and influence there characters/items again.

I think preventing the wizard dump is alllot easier than you guys make it out.

i am still up in the air about how to combat a Minion dump. How do you guys fight a Minion Dump. It seems possible that i could move elrond to your site, Snowstorm to back to it and then influence the One before you could move it to the dump site. The Minion dump also looks to squat at one site which makes it a prime target for DI.

Zarathustra help me out here.

The idea looks tobe that you squat at a sight, to play the ring, get the right cards in hand and then move once to dump it. Correct. How do youprevent me form moving Elrond to the squat site and attacking you with DI every turn?

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Lord Leuber
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Post by Lord Leuber » Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:58 pm

It would take Elrond as many turns to get to Mount Doom as it would take the dunker. And, even when he is sitting there, the dunker can arrive and dunk in one turn - not much ol' Vilya keeper can do about it. Besides, a lone Elrond travelling about (and using Vilya) is easy to stop with any hazard that you would typically have in your deck, like River, Adunaphel, corruption...

The minion One Ring just prevents itself. It's so hard for minions to get The One out (with a reasonable chance of success) that a minion One Ring deck is hardly viable. Most often you'd see it 'attached' to a regular deck simply by putting 3 Black Rains and the One in the deck. I guess the solution is just to be faster.

Zarathustra
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Post by Zarathustra » Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:00 pm

What prevents me from leaving Elrond at Mount Doom and preventing the actual dump?
As Lord Leuber Pointed out, Elrond can't do anything during your opponent's site phase. That means that you would at least have to stop him the turn he arrived at Mount Doom, then keep Elrond untapped to allow him to influence on your turn (assuming as well that your opponent doesnt play Tookish Blood -- and that's a big assumption). So, no, it isn't impossible to influence The One away; I did it with Fallen Gandalf once after playing multiple Rivers against a Mt Doom-bound company and stopping them for a turn. It just shouldn't be your only option.
Also Snowstorm, Inner Cunning/Baduila sends your opponent back to their previous ste allowing you to try and influence there characters/items again.
Yes, roadblock is great vs. a One Ring deck (and many other decks, for that matter). I've seen people play Long Winter/Snowstorm to tap Mt Doom and then send the company back, putting Mt Doom in the discard pile. That's baaaaaaad news. However, you can expect to see Promptings of Wisdom in most good hero dump decks -- either on Sam in a Hobbit deck or on one of Elrond's boys in an Elf deck or on Thrain or Oin in a Dwarf deck. So much for roadblock....
I think preventing the wizard dump is alllot easier than you guys make it out.
Tell that to all the people Joe Bisz has dunked on. And to the people I dunked on at US nationals this year. And to the Finns, whose national champion this year won by dunking. ;)
I am still up in the air about how to combat a Minion dump. How do you guys fight a Minion Dump. It seems possible that i could move elrond to your site, Snowstorm to back to it and then influence the One before you could move it to the dump site. The Minion dump also looks to squat at one site which makes it a prime target for DI.
As Lord Leuber pointed out, Minion dump doesn't really need to be combatted because it's already so friggin hard. Now, given that with a couple of really lucky rolls a minion can return the One to Barad-Dur in 2 turns, but the probability of doing so is insanely low. As was mentioned, most minion ring decks go for MPs with just the option of playing the One, if the occassion should arrise (which is rarely does). Things to do against such decks include:
:arrow: Corruption (gold rings = 4 cp!!),
:arrow: CVCC (a much better option than influence in most cases),
:arrow: Playing the Scroll of Isildur yourself,
:arrow: Seized by Terror, since such decks usually end up having the One on a rather-low-mind character like Ufthak.
Still, I wouldn't worry too much about one of these decks. The badbeard and Balrog dunks are even harder (especially the New Ringlord), so there's not much of a threat there.

If you want to try to make an effective minion One Ring deck, I would suggest one of two things:

1) A dragon-country deck with a bunch of rings and a couple of sages. Play rings and Black Rain at the same site (not to mention the scroll), and then pray for good rolls.

2) A split deck wherein one company squats at, say, Buhr Widu to play Black Rain while the other runs around collecting stuff.

I've tried both. I've failed miserably with both. As far as I know, the best minion dunkers are Takao Suzuki and Jeroen Ouwehand (please excuse any misspellings). You might want to talk to them if you have any further questions.

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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:22 pm

Correction: Jeroen Ouwehand has never dunked or brought home the ring in any tourney, he usually played a Balrog-pussy deck. Takao is more the expert in this field.
I think I have a quite original minion one-ring deck that might stand a chance, which I shall not reveal here because my deck ideas might be used by others to win championships (right Mark? :wink:), but I'll say this, never play one ring in a tourney unless you can stand the disappointment over failed rolls. In austria I was there on the slopes of Orodruin in just 3-4 turns, but 3 out of 5 games I missed 5 rolls on the ring[two WT and a Gandalf], I tell yah, that sucks.

Zara wrote:
One instance when having the One Ring in your sideboard is useful is the (I'll admit -- rare) situation in which you are playing moving Balrog against a hero).
Another interesting thing I learned at the worlds in Austria, and which really dropped my pants to my knees, was that it pays to have a one-ring in your sideboard: in case your opponent gives up the game, you could say you were going to dunk and in stead of a 6-0 you'd get a 7-0. this one's for all yeh competetive tourney loving players... 8O
'Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo

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Post by Gwaihir » Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:03 am

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:Another interesting thing I learned at the worlds in Austria, and which really dropped my pants to my knees, was that it pays to have a one-ring in your sideboard: in case your opponent gives up the game, you could say you were going to dunk and in stead of a 6-0 you'd get a 7-0. this one's for all yeh competetive tourney loving players... 8O
Hmmpf.. just putting the One in won't work. You have to convince the judge that the deck is seriously capable of pulling it off. Besides: why would your opponent give you a 7-0 like that, when all he has to do is hang in there for a while?
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:39 pm

Yes, you'd have to include more cards than just the One
Hanging in there for a while might just be the problem....or it was a deal between friends [don't want to be so cynical as to think that]. Hey don't ask me why, but to my knowledge it did happen at worlds then, perhaps we should ask Wolfgang, he was judge I think.
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