Flies and Spiders

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Morgoth the Black
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Flies and Spiders

Post by Morgoth the Black » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:32 am

Permanent-event
Playable on a character facing a Spider attack. If the strike is successful, target character is not harmed and is taken prisoner at a Ruins & Lairs. During his untap phase, make a body check for that character modified by +1. If not eliminated, his player then makes a roll (draws a #) adding his body. If the result is greater than 15, the character is automatically rescued into his own company located at the rescue site.
Rescue-attack: Spiders - 3 strikes with 9 prowess.
First, if I was playing the Balrog would I be able to take a site like Ancient Deep Hold from my site deck to place a character taken prisoner from the effect of Flies and Spiders?  

Second, lets say I wasnt even playing the Balrog, in the card text it doesnt even say it has to be a site from my site deck so even if I was playing a different alignment could I still place him at the Ancient Deep Hold?

Third, if it is possible to put him at a site that isnt accessible by my opponent (e.g. he is not playing Balrog) and according to the text on Flies and Spiders a character is able to make the roll to release himself from captivity, what would happen to the character?

Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:34 am

MEDM, Taking Prisoners wrote:TAKING PRISONERS

Certain hazard permanent-events cause a character to be taken prisoner-these are called hazard hosts. A character taken prisoner immediately leaves his original company and is placed under its hazard host "off to the side." Additionally, the player playing the hazard host must take a site card from his location deck and place it with the hazard host-this is called the rescue site. Playing a rescue site is governed by the following rules.

  1. Any restrictions listed on the hazard host must be observed (e.g., it must be a Ruins & Lairs, must have an Orc automatic-attack, etc.).
  2. If the hazard host is played on a character moving with region movement, the rescue site must be a site located in a region in which the character was moving or in a region adjacent to a region in which the character was moving.
  3. If the hazard host is played on a character moving with starter movement, the rescue site must be located in the region containing the site of origin or the new site.
  4. If the hazard host is played on a character not moving, the rescue site must be located in the same region as the character's site.
  5. If the hazard host is played on a character moving to a new site that is an adjacent site of an Under-deeps site, the rescue site can be that Under-deeps site.
  6. If a rescue site is not available within these rules, the hazard host cannot be played!
  7. When removed from the play surface, rescue sites always return to the location deck.
Ancient Deep-Hold wrote:Ancient Deep-hold
TYPE: Site
REGION: Under-deeps
SITE TYPE: R
ADJACENT: no surface site, one Under-deeps Ruins & Lairs chosen by you when playing this card (8)
DRAW: 2/2
PLAYABLE: info/min/maj/gr/ring
AUTO_ATTACK: Undead 4 strikes, 7 prowess; 3 strikes, 8 prowess; 2 strikes, 10 prowess.
SPECIAL: Each character wounded must make a corruption check modified by -2. Any Undead and Spider creatures may be keyed to this site. This site is never discarded or returned to its location deck.
CRF, Prisoners wrote:You cannot take prisoners from a company stationary at an Under-deeps site (using that same Under-deeps site as the Rescue Site). [CoE]

I have bolded the key phrases.

1)  No.  Ancient Deep-Hold only has an adjacent site when it is played.  Using it as a rescue site does not constitute playing it.

2) The card text lists additional restrictions to the basic rules for taking prisoners in this case.  There are some prisoner-taking cards that override the rules, but Flies and Spiders is not one of them.
MEDM, Rescue and the Rescue-attack wrote:Note: If he has one available, a player must use a site from his own location deck to rescue imprisoned characters. If he does not have the site or if the site is in his discard pile, the copy with the hazard host can be used to show the rescuing company's movement (if the rescue attempt is successful, the site would remain in play until the company leaves the site). In this case the site is not available for the rescuing player to use for any purpose (other than to rescue prisoners and play one minor item) until the company leaves the site and his play deck is exhausted.
3) It is possible, and it means that you don't get to use whatever site you provided until your opponent decides to move completely away from the site.

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:04 am

Bandobras Took wrote:1)  No.  Ancient Deep-Hold only has an adjacent site when it is played.  Using it as a rescue site does not constitute playing it.
Consider following situation: Barlog player's company is at Under-deeps Ruins & Lairs and want to move to adjacent site. Player look at list of adjacent sites an sees that Ancient Deep-hold is not present on it. And of course because Ancient Deep-hold has not yet been played, thus which Under-deeps Ruins & Lairs is adjacent to it is not determined yet.
So when Ancient Deep-hold can be played? Is there any chance to break this impasse?
Morgoth the Black wrote:Second, lets say I wasnt even playing the Balrog, in the card text it doesnt even say it has to be a site from my site deck so even if I was playing a different alignment could I still place him at the Ancient Deep Hold?
As Bandobras Took said plus:
The Balrog, Getting Ready to Play, Miscellaneous wrote:A non-Balrog player cannot use Balrog sites. However, for the purposes of playing
certain hazards, a non-Balrog player’s location deck may include one copy each of:
Ancient Deep-hold, The Wind-deeps, The Drowning Deeps, The Rusted-deeps, and
Remains of Thangorodrim (i.e., the Balrog sites for which there is no corresponding
hero or minion site).
BTW. is there any situation imaginable other than using site as rescue site, that can be classified as "for the purposes of playing
certain hazards"?

P.S.
ADJACENT: no surface site, one Under-deeps Ruins & Lairs chosen by you when playing this card
This phrase is curious for reason not releated to this topic. If it could be true tha playing is "the process of bringing a card from your hand into play." then question is: at which moment Ancient Deep-Hold is in player's hand?
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Post by Bandobras Took » Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:22 am

Ancient Deep-Hold and Deep Mines are both examples of a special type of Under-deeps site.  Their adjacent site is determined when they are played as a result of a decision to move there.  That adjacent site does not change until the card returns to the location deck.

A similar example: as a FW player, Isengard, when not in play, could be either a ruins & lairs or a wizardhaven.  However, once I select a version of Isengard and play it, it is that site type while in play (unless an effect changes that site type).

Which brings up the question of whether agents can move there if it isn't in play, but we'll leave that for another thread. :)

However the mechanics work for moving to Ancient Deep Hold, the prisoner card rules say that you "place" the site card rather than "play" it, and so there is no possible way to determine Ancient Deep Hold's adjacent site at that time, because you can only determine it when the card is played (and let's not discuss what "played" means, either. :) ).

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:52 am

Bandobras Took wrote:Their adjacent site is determined when they are played as a result of a decision to move there.
"as a result of a decision to move there" is just added by you (unless it results from some general rule not known to me).

If think that it is example of deadlock than cannot be resolved otherwise than threating both effects ("playing" and "determing adjacent site") as one action.
Other example is Gandalf an Gandalf The White Rider (GTWR is discarded when Gandalf comes in play, but GTWR as Gandalf's manifestation prevents Gandalf from coming in play). Another is playing unique special ring attached to the Rumours of Rings (the ring may be played as though it were at player's hand, but at the moment when it could be played the ring still counts as being in play for purpose of uniquess).

P.S.
Which brings up the question of whether agents can move there if it isn't in play, but we'll leave that for another thread.
My not published earlier interpretation: agent's movement may become illegal/legal due to changes of Haven/non-Haven status of sites that he uses.
Note that illegal agent's movement is not violation of rules (cheating). There are regulations in Dark Minions that describes what happens if agent’s series of sites indicating its travel is illegal.

EDIT:
typo "May" -> "My"
Last edited by Konrad Klar on Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:14 pm

Yeah, one action is what I meant.  I may not have expressed it clearly, as I was in a hurry. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:20 pm

So where is moot point now?
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Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:06 pm

Because there was not response from Bandobras, nor from anyone, now is my turn. :wink:

If issue is not timing but:
Bandobras Took wrote:However the mechanics work for moving to Ancient Deep Hold, the prisoner card rules say that you "place" the site card rather than "play" it, and so there is no possible way to determine Ancient Deep Hold's adjacent site at that time,
I would be able to humbly accept this explanation ("not played but merely placed, so adjacent site cannot be determined") if not one thing:

DM rules does not make distinction between "placing rescue site" and "playing rescue site".
Dark Minions, Taking Prisoners wrote: Playing a rescue site is governed by the following rules.
• Any restrictions listed on the hazard host must be observed [...]
Underline mine.
And I do not suspect a typo here.
Dark Minions, Taking Prisoners wrote:A character taken prisoner immediately leaves his original
company and is placed under its hazard host “off to the side.”
Additionally, the player playing the hazard host must take a site card from his
location deck and place it with the hazard host—this is called the rescue site.
So unlike an imprisoned character a rescue site is not placed “off to the side.”

EDIT:
a typo strikes again. This time "hubly" -> "humbly"
Corrected.
Last edited by Konrad Klar on Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:20 pm

You got me -- I really wish ICE had decided on their terminology BEFORE making their rules. :)

Morgoth the Black
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Post by Morgoth the Black » Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:14 pm

Thank you very much for the clarification.  I will reflect it in my games from now on!

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