Cumulative modifications

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TedPikul
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Cumulative modifications

Post by TedPikul » Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:28 pm

Hi. I have a problem applying modifications that are cumulative. For example, if I play a Barrow Wight and I also play "The Moon is Dead", "Plague of Wights" and "DoN", the attack can go from 1 @ 12 to 3 @ 14 or 4 @ 14 depending on the order the cards are resolved. (I read Annotation 26, but I'm assuming the cards were played during the M/H phase)
A similar situation, Eowyn with Aiglos fighting Uvatha, the body of Uvatha con go from 9 to 3 or 4 again depending on the order I apply the modifications. This is so confusing!

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Shapeshifter
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Post by Shapeshifter » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:02 am

The hazard player decides the order in which the cards apply in the first case.
Not sure about Eowyn vs. Uvatha.

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:07 pm

In fact a modifiers of an attack are actions. Actions caused by passive condition. Passive condition in this case is occurance of  the attack of appropriate type (automatic, hazard creature, undead etc). Each of such actions pretends to be first declared action of next chain of effect.

According to passive condition rules, if multiple actions are caused in the same chain of effect (here: occurance of attack), player which is turn (i.e resource player) chooses order in which these actions wiil be declared.

Annotation 26 is not used here.
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TedPikul
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Post by TedPikul » Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:16 pm

Mmm.. this means that in my example of the undead attack the resource player is the one that chooses the order and not the hazards player?

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Shapeshifter
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Post by Shapeshifter » Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:46 pm

In the Passive Conditions Timing Primer (sticky in this forum) it says:
Annotation 10: This has to do with cases where multiple passive conditions trigger multiple effects at the same time. A good example of this involves the play of undead creatures boosted by The Moon is Dead and Plague of Wights (with Doors of Night). If The Moon is Dead, Plague of Wights, and Doors of Night are all in play and resolved when an undead attack is declared (say, a Barrow Wight), then the resource player decides in which order the passive conditions are trigger their effects. So, both The Moon is Dead (+1 strike, +1 prowes) and Plague of Wights try to trigger (double strikes, +1 prowess), and the resource player gets to choose the order. Unless he’s suicidal, he’s going to want to have as few strikes as possible, so he chooses to let the effect of Plague of Wights be triggered first (doubling the number of strikes from 1 to 2), then The Moon is Dead (adding one more strike to go from 2 to 3). If for some reason he wanted to die, he could let them resolve in the reverse order: The Moon is Dead (+1 strike from 1 to 2), then Plague of Wights (double strikes from 2 to 4). As you can see, this makes quite a difference.
According to this it is the resource player who gets to choose.

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Eyelid
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Post by Eyelid » Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:25 am

--> TedPikul, allow me to make a contribution to the discussion, although I'm still a beginner at this game.

I think game play proceeds as follows:

If during your turn you play a Barrow-wight, then a Moon is Dead, then a Plague of Wights and finally a Doors of Night, each of those cards will resolve one at a time in the order you played them, assuming of course none were cancelled upon declaration.
So the order in which you play these cards would be important because the end result will depend precisely on that order of play.

The only reason Annotation 26 would not work here is because these effects were not in play at the beginning of the movement-hazard phase.

Now, on a later turn, let's assume Moon is Dead, Plague of Wights and Doors of Night are all in play. Here, Annotation 26 kicks in:
Annotation 26: If at the start of a player¹s movement/hazard phase, there are multiple effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied, the player who is currently not taking his turn (i.e., the hazard player) decides the order in which they are to be applied. Once this interpretation is established, all further actions are applied in the order they are resolved for the rest of the turn.
Underline mine.
When the movement-hazard phase begins during that later turn, these effects are already in play. As the hazard player, you would get to determine the order in which they apply.
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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:19 pm

It is question of distinguishing between actions and continuous effects.

If you are not convinced:
CRF, Ready to his Will wrote:Note that cards like Rank Upon Rank are applied as a passive condition, once an attack of the right type is in play. Therefore you can play and successfully resolve Ready to His Will in response to the declaration of Rank Upon Rank's effect.
Effects in play mentioned in Annotation 26 are not actions. They are never triggered by anything.
Example situations are:

1. Itangast At Home, The Balance of The Things, (and possibly Bane of The Ithil-Stone, Fate of The Ithil-Stone) are simultaneously in play.

2. Doors of Night, Morgul Night, Fell Winter are  simultaneously in play.

Greater item (palantir) is in play continously and its CP counts continously, the same for regions and their types . Unlike attacks it does not appear in play and does not trigger anything.
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