About Many Turns And Doublings

Darksatin · Post by **Darksatin** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:32 pm

Many Turns and Doublings :
"Ranger only. Cancel an attack by Wolves, Spiders, Animals, or Undead. Alternatively, if Gates of Morning is in play, decrease the hazard limit against the ranger's company by one (no minimum). "

Gates of Morning is in play. I can play 2 hazards on a company of my opponent. I play a creature, then a Permanent-event. My opponent plays Many Turns and Doublings. What happens to my Permanent-event ?
a) he is discarded
b) he goes back to my hand

Sauron · Post by **Sauron** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:47 pm

Depends on the order of how things are played out.

What is being responded to and when.

Is it

Creature played, resolved, faced, etc.  Then Perm Event

Or is it Creature, Perm event played in resopnse, then Many turns played in response?

The order in which things are played matters for this particular question.

Darksatin · Post by **Darksatin** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:01 pm

It's : Creature played, resolved, faced, etc.  Then Perm Event played.
Then, Many Turns and Doublings.
What happens ?

Zakath · Post by **Zakath** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:10 am

The perm is discarded at that point.

Wacho · Post by **Wacho** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:12 pm

Sauron wrote:Depends on the order of how things are played out.

What is being responded to and when.

Is it

Creature played, resolved, faced, etc.  Then Perm Event

Or is it Creature, Perm event played in resopnse, then Many turns played in response?

The order in which things are played matters for this particular question.

Actually it doesn't matter which situation it is.  In either one the Perm Event will fizzle because at that point there will be more hazards declared than the current hazard limit.  See the discussion in the Hazard Limit Reduction topic that is stickied in this forum.

BeeBoy · Post by **BeeBoy** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:00 pm

Wacho wrote:
Sauron wrote:Depends on the order of how things are played out.

What is being responded to and when.

Is it

Creature played, resolved, faced, etc.  Then Perm Event

Or is it Creature, Perm event played in resopnse, then Many turns played in response?

The order in which things are played matters for this particular question.
Actually it doesn't matter which situation it is.  In either one the Perm Event will fizzle because at that point there will be more hazards declared than the current hazard limit.  See the discussion in the Hazard Limit Reduction topic that is stickied in this forum.

Really?  My understanding has always been this:

Creature declared - declared Hazard limit reduced to 1
Perm-event declared in response - declared Hazard limit reduced to 0
Many Turns declared in response

Resolution:
Many Turns resolves: Resolution hazard limit reduced to 1
Perm-event resolves: Resolution hazard limit reduced to 0
Creature tries to resolve and fails due to current hazard limit of 0

I read through the sticky and it seems to agree with this; If I misunderstood, could someone please point to the part of the sticky that I misunderstood?

Bandobras Took · Post by **Bandobras Took** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:27 pm

Wacho was talking about the difference between:

Creature declared and resolved;
Perm declared in new chain of effects;
Many turns declared.

In this case, the perm fizzles because there was only 1 HL to work with.

In the case of
Creature Declared;
Perm declared;
Many Turns declared;

You need to turn to the CRF

You check the hazard limit at declaration and resolution. At declaration there must be less hazards already declared than the hazard limit. At resolution there must be no more hazards declared than the hazard limit.

Many turns resolves first.  The perm tries to resolve, but there are still more hazards declared than the hazard limit so it goes poof.  The creature resolves and is still within the allowed declared hazards, so resolves successfully.

The key to overcoming fizzling is to play hazards in response to the hazard limit reducers, so that they resolve first.