Great Ship and Threats: Some clarification needed

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Halbarad
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Great Ship and Threats: Some clarification needed

Post by Halbarad » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:39 pm

Hello all! After a nice little session of MECCG yesterday, there are two things that I would love to get clarified. First:

Can a great ship played in turn three, discard a lure of x played in turn one, or any similar perm-event played in an earlier turn? I thought that it couldn´t, however bear in mind that I was the hazard player:)

And second:

The Mouth is at the Lonely Mountain, trying to talk Smaug into join up with old-One-eye, wearing a Blazon of the Eye. If I were to use a Threats, what would the final DI-bonus be? 6, 8 or 10? Do threats remove the Mouths own bonus as written in his card text, or only his unused DI(4)?

Thanks a lot in advance!

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Jaded
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Post by Jaded » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:23 pm

1. Yes as long as it targets company or an entity associated with the company (Lures usually do)

2. 8, DI does not work.

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Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:52 pm

Jaded wrote:2. 8, DI does not work.
I believe you mean 6. :)
Blazon of the Eye wrote:+2 to direct influence against factions. Cannot be duplicated on a given character.
Threats wrote:Warrior only. Playable on a warrior attempting to influence a faction. Warrior does not use his unused direct influence for the attempt. Instead he uses his prowess, to a maximum modifier of +6.

Halbarad
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Post by Halbarad » Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:14 pm

Thanks a lot guys, that means great ship is even better than I thought. I better start building some GS-abusing decks just about now. =)

Cheers,
Petter

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Post by Marcos » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:15 pm

hmmm.. beware lost at sea and all that coastal sea specific crap that people use to include in their sideboard...

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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:20 pm

Also keep in mind that since Great Ship depends for its effect on the site path of the moving company, its effect isn't declared until the start of the m/h phase -- which will give an opponent a chance to respond to its declaration.

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Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:45 pm

Marcos wrote:hmmm.. beware lost at sea and all that coastal sea specific crap that people use to include in their sideboard...
Because text of Great Ship does not contain clause that allows for canceling a declared effect before it resolve it cannot protect from short-events like Lost At Sea.
P.S. The same for Leaflock and Tom Bombadil.
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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:08 pm

Why not?  I was under the impression that an effect, like an attack, has to be established before it can be canceled.  For example, Bane of the Ithil-Stone's cancelling ability is only triggered by the resolution of an effect which would allow the player to search, not by the declaration.  Also Gates of Morning cancels Hazard Environment effects that have already resolved.

Doesn't Great Ship work the same way by cancelling a hazard that has already resolved?

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Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:36 pm

Bane of the Ithil-Stone's cancelling ability is automatic (by it's text). It does not need be initiated by some action e.g tapping. It does not cause any declaration in response to action that allows for searching in deck/discard.

Gates of Morning can cancel effects (ongoing), but not results of actions. It cannot cancel results like: company returned to the site of origin by action from Snowstorm, or Elf tapped by New Moon.

Card declared and not resolved is not in play, so cannot be affected. When short-event is resolved it is too late to cancel it (there is no time for declaring Great Ship's effect in middle of resolving chain of effects). Some short-events produces ongoing effect, that can be interrupted later, e.g. treating (not changing to) site or region as other type until end of turn. One time action, such like e.g. discarding, or eliminating entity, dice roll, cannot be canceled, if it is already performed.

For this reasons some cards contains special clause referring to card declared earlier in the same chain of effects. Otherwise such cards could not be working at all.
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Post by Old Tuk » Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:30 am

Konrad Klar wrote:Because text of Great Ship does not contain clause that allows for canceling a declared effect before it resolve it cannot protect from short-events like Lost At Sea.
P.S. The same for Leaflock and Tom Bombadil.
Interesting. So Great Ship cant neither cancel an effect on declaration nor cancel an effect that has resolved? The only thing that can be canceld are permanents (in play) and creatures?

CRF
Great Ship
Card Erratum: Add "Tap a character in target company during the organization phase to play Great Ship on that company." Replace "...contains a coastal sea region..." with "...contains a coastal sea region and no consecutive non-coastal sea regions..."
Allows the canceling of one creature or the canceling and discarding of an event that targets the company in question or an entity associated with that company.
What about an on-guard. For example: I play a faction, opponent reveals Lure of Power. Can I cancel it with Marvels Told? I mean, does a card on guard start a new chain of effects? Then it couldnt be canceled on declaration, right?

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Post by Jambo » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:44 am

Konrad Klar wrote:Card declared and not resolved is not in play, so cannot be affected. When short-event is resolved it is too late to cancel it (there is no time for declaring Great Ship's effect in middle of resolving chain of effects). Some short-events produces ongoing effect, that can be interrupted later, e.g. treating (not changing to) site or region as other type until end of turn. One time action, such like e.g. discarding, or eliminating entity, dice roll, cannot be canceled, if it is already performed.

For this reasons some cards contains special clause referring to card declared earlier in the same chain of effects. Otherwise such cards could not be working at all.
Great Ship (with errata):
Tap a character in target company during the organization phase to play Great Ship on that company. If company's current site path contains a coastal sea region and no consecutive non-coastal sea regions, until the end of the turn any character in the company may tap to cancel the effects of one hazard that targets the company.

So, one can use Great Ship to cancel hazards that target a character. Why does that mean they have to resolve first?
Visit the Optional Rules forum and try out the community accepted Unofficial Errata.

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Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:46 pm

Jambo wrote:So, one can use Great Ship to cancel hazards that target a character. Why does that mean they have to resolve first?
Reason is:
CRF, Rulings by Term, Targets wrote:Annotation 1: A card is not in play until it is resolved in its chain of effects. When the
play of a card is declared, no elements of the card may be the target of actions declared in the same chain of effects. An exception to this is a dice-rolling action, e.g. a corruption check.
Text of Great Ship does not make an exception from this rule.
Old Tuk wrote:What about an on-guard. For example: I play a faction, opponent reveals Lure of Power. Can I cancel it with Marvels Told? I mean, does a card on guard start a new chain of effects? Then it couldnt be canceled on declaration, right?
CRF, Turn Sequence, Site Phase, On-Guard Cards wrote:A revealed on-guard card retroactively takes effect as though it were both declared and resolved immediately prior to the chain of effects during which it was revealed.
So Marvels Told is played on Lure of Power that is already in play, not on just declared (and not resolved yet) Lure of Power.
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Post by Jambo » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:55 pm

Ok, but why can't the effect(s) of a short event hazard still be cancelled after it's resolved?

Like, for example, Praise to Elbereth.
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Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:13 pm

CRF, Errata(Cards), Praise to Elbereth wrote:Nazgûl events discarded by Praise to Elbereth have no effect. Which characters are
tapping to discard which events must be declared when Praise to Elbereth is declared. Nazgûl permanent-events that are targeted by Praise to Elbereth may not be tapped in response to its play.
Underline mine.

Because Nazgûl permanent-events does not have effect on game, it seems that Praise to Elbereth can target declaed (and not resolved) Nazgûl short-events.
There are two possibilites:
- Only Praise to Elbereth is exception from Annotation 1.
- Praise to Elbereth has the same mechanics as Leaflock, Great Ship ect., so Leaflock, Great Ship ect. can be used for canceling short-event (because it is canceled as whole, not one particular element of card is targeted) before it resolve.

If second is true, then it would mean then also creature can be canceled (because it is canceled as whole, not one particular element of card is targeted) before resolved, which is unlikely.

In all cases Praise to Elbereth cannot cancel resolved effect of Nazgûl. Please note that "Nazgûl permanent-events that are targeted by Praise to Elbereth may not be tapped in response to its play". What does it mean? If Nazgûl permanent-event would become short-event and resolve before Praise to Elbereth, than at resolution Praise to Elbereth could not have its target and it will fizzle. For this reason that prase is necessary.
Praise to Elbereth does not target effects. It targets event.
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Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:25 pm

Poisonous Despair wrote: Magic. Spirit-magic. Playable on a spirit-magic-using character in response to an influence attempt against a character, ally, or item in his company. The attempt is canceled.
It seems that one may cancel actions that have not yet resolved without explicit permission.  Maybe I'll just make a new thread regarding cancelling non-attacks in general; the whole area is murky even on card texts . . .

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