Question! Adunaphel in METW

Ask any question regarding the game's (official) rules

Moderators: Jambo, Moderators

TedPikul
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:35 am
Location: USA/Chile

Question! Adunaphel in METW

Post by TedPikul » Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:37 am

Hi! I have a question, let's say my opponent has 2 companies, can I use Adunaphel's ability to tap ANY character? What if I'm attacking company number 2 and I use Adunaphel to tap a character of company number 1, is that possible?

Thanks!

User avatar
Jaded
Posts: 483
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:42 am
Location: Poland

Post by Jaded » Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:17 am

No, hazards may target company (or entity associated with this company) only during this company movement hazard phase.

TedPikul
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:35 am
Location: USA/Chile

Post by TedPikul » Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:48 am

Thanks!

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Posts: 417
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:17 am
Location: Walbrzych/Poland
Contact:

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:14 pm

How about rule: card's text has priority over general rules?

Example:

General rule:
CRF, Turn Sequence, Combat, Attack wrote:In order to cancel an attack or to directly affect an attack, the character doing so must be in the company facing the attack.
Card's text:
Hoarmûrath Unleashed wrote:Playable on Hoarmûrath the Ringwraith (as your Ringwraith). Cancel an attack against any one of your companies.  ...with his far-stretched right hand...great evil in the North.-LotR
Underile mine.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
Jaded
Posts: 483
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:42 am
Location: Poland

Post by Jaded » Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:12 pm

Find the exeption concerning hazards and we are home.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Posts: 417
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:17 am
Location: Walbrzych/Poland
Contact:

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:02 pm

Waiting Shadow wrote:Environment. Playable on a company with an untapped Orc, Troll, or Man character. Tap an Orc, Troll, or Man character in that company. (defender's choice). If Doors of Night is in play, the company need not contain an Orc, Troll, or Man and any one character in that company is tapped (defender's choice).
Not an excepion, but other example of use of phrase "any one", this time in conjunction with "in that company". Makes difference?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
Ringbearer
Posts: 239
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:24 pm

Post by Ringbearer » Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:15 am

Long Winter is such an exception, it works on all sites, even your own (as I kinda forgot when I moved to the Old Forest).
Player of killer hazards no-one else ever dares to play :D

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Posts: 417
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:17 am
Location: Walbrzych/Poland
Contact:

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:29 am

Long Winter (and all long-events) does not target anything.
Actions from Long Winter (tap a site with two wilderness in its site path if DoN is in play, return a company with no ranger if company site path has two wilderness) targets each site, and each company.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
Jaded
Posts: 483
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:42 am
Location: Poland

Post by Jaded » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:02 pm

Konrad Klar wrote: Not an excepion, but other example of use of phrase "any one", this time in conjunction with "in that company". Makes difference?
No - that does nothing to do with quoted rule.

Long Winter's actions target nothing.

Bandobras Took
Moderator
Posts: 1275
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:03 pm

Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:45 pm

CRF wrote:Annotation 3: Long-events and certain other cards do not have targets because they are not played out through one specific entity, i.e., they generally affect an entire class of things.
I have no clear opinion on the larger debate, though.

:?:

Edit:

Then again, perhaps I do:
Rolled wrote:Unique. Opponent must discard a ring from his hand or from one of his companies if available. If no rings are available as such, he must reveal his hand to you.
This would mean that the ring must be in my hand or in the company for which it is currently the m/h phase.  All other rings are entities associated with other companies and cannot be targeted by this hazard.

Unless we agree that hazards can, in fact, target other companies if the card text indicates it.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Posts: 417
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:17 am
Location: Walbrzych/Poland
Contact:

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:53 am

Jaded wrote:
Konrad Klar wrote: Not an excepion, but other example of use of phrase "any one", this time in conjunction with "in that company". Makes difference?
No - that does nothing to do with quoted rule.

Long Winter's actions target nothing.
Our undersanding of term "target" is somehow different.
If action (caused by passive condition) "return the company to the site of origin" is declared, why the company cannot be considered a target here?

Bandobras Took wrote:This would mean that the ring must be in my hand or in the company for which it is currently the m/h phase.  All other rings are entities associated with other companies and cannot be targeted by this hazard.

Unless we agree that hazards can, in fact, target other companies if the card text indicates it.
If the ring (or something else) is not required by action, then the ring (or something else) is not a target.
Reverse is not always true (not all conditions are targets).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

Bandobras Took
Moderator
Posts: 1275
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:03 pm

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:32 am

If action (caused by passive condition) "return the company to the site of origin" is declared, why the company cannot be considered a target here?
Because by rule, Long Events do not have targets.  Period.
If the ring (or something else) is not required by action, then the ring (or something else) is not a target.
"A target is an entity through which an action is played out."

The ring is required by the discard action.  Discarding targets the ring (number and type both specified).

(On a humorous note, I should start wearing cheap plastic rings so when someone plays Rolled, I can "discard a ring from my hand." :))

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Posts: 417
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:17 am
Location: Walbrzych/Poland
Contact:

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:54 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
If action (caused by passive condition) "return the company to the site of origin" is declared, why the company cannot be considered a target here?
Because by rule, Long Events do not have targets.  Period.
Long-events by itself does not have a target. Torque of Hues nor its bearer does not have a target. Actions: cancel attack, bearer makes cc have targets (attack, bearer).
Bandobras Took wrote: "A target is an entity through which an action is played out."
That definition (alone) is not sufficient to understanding term of "target".
Add to it:
Annotation 8: An action that requires a target is considered to have the active condition that the target be in play when the action is declared and when it is resolved. An action may not be declared if its target is not in play. However, dice-rolling actions may always be targeted by other actions declared later in the same chain of effects.
and it will be more complete.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

Bandobras Took
Moderator
Posts: 1275
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:03 pm

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:35 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:Long-events by itself does not have a target. Torque of Hues nor its bearer does not have a target. Actions: cancel attack, bearer makes cc have targets (attack, bearer).
Again:  Annotation 3: Long-events and certain other cards do not have targets because they are not played out through one specific entity, i.e., they generally affect an entire class of things.

Long Winter affects all sites/companies, but it is not played out through any specific one, rather, it is played out through all.
That definition (alone) is not sufficient to understanding term of "target".
Add to it:
Annotation 8: An action that requires a target is considered to have the active condition that the target be in play when the action is declared and when it is resolved. An action may not be declared if its target is not in play. However, dice-rolling actions may always be targeted by other actions declared later in the same chain of effects.
and it will be more complete.
That definition has more to do with active conditions than targets.  The fact that Rolled can target a card not in play is a rather good argument for allowing Adunaphel/Indur to target any character in play.  But Long-Events cannot be used for the same argument because Long Events (and their effects) by rule do not target anything.

User avatar
Jaded
Posts: 483
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:42 am
Location: Poland

Post by Jaded » Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:09 pm

Konrad Klar wrote: Our undersanding of term "target" is somehow different.
If action (caused by passive condition) "return the company to the site of origin" is declared, why the company cannot be considered a target here?
I understand your point of view, but I'm sure it's wrong.
The company cannot be considered target because it's one of all other companies (even if it's only one company on the table) not the one it was played on.

Post Reply