Highwayman attacks! - Sacrifice of Form

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Highwayman attacks! - Sacrifice of Form

Post by |Highwayman| » Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:40 am

Sacrifice of Form
hero resource - permanent-event
Influence:  +1
Prowess/Body:  +1/+1
Description:  Spell.  Wizard only.  All of the strikes from one attack against your Wizard's company fail; +3 to any body checks made to determine if the attack is defeated.  Discard the Wizard (i.e., he becomes unrevealed) and any non-item cards he controls.  Place any items he controls under his card and keep these off to the side (these items are considered to still be in play).  If the Wizard is put back into play, return his items to him and place Sacrifice of Form with him.  Wizard receives +1 to his prowess, body, and direct influence.  May not be duplicated on a given Wizard.
the part I've underlined is the problem as it can be read that even the character followers under the wizard's DI must be discarded, even worse - as far as I know it is accepted by most that it works this way

obviously I do not agree with this interpretation:

First of all I think that character followers should not be treated as "cards the wizard controls", as they are not played on the wizard (like various events) nor by the wizard (like allies, items, etc.)

Secondly, the CRF and MEBA (the last and most up-to-date ICE made rules) say:
CRF wrote:Discard
- Whenever a character is discarded, all non-follower cards played with that character are also discarded.
MEBA wrote:Discarding Cards
When a card leaves active play (discarded, eliminated, returned to owner's hand, etc.), discard all cards played on it.
so clearly when a character -who has other characters as followers under his DI- leaves play his followers aren't discarded, they just pop out of his DI (as it's no longer there since the character is no more) and move under GI

And thirdly - minion Arkenstone is a good example of how things should work, as there is no mention on it's card that character followers of the discarded dwarf should be spared - the CRF entry I quoted above handles that nicely.
Why did The Arkenstone get an errata is beyond me - probably just an extra, unnecessary text (like the 'site does not tap' bit on That Ain't No Secret - it's obvious that event's played on a site do not tap it unless it is said so in their texts')
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Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:22 am

Unless this was based on a specific ICE ruling on Sacrifice of Form, this is one I'd also like to see overturned.
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Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:38 pm

MELE Rulebook wrote:Direct Influence

Some characters have a direct influence attribute of one or more. If such a character's direct influence is greater than or equal to another one of your characters' mind attribute, he may take control of that other character, who then becomes a follower of the controlling character.
I don't think there's any other way to read it than that a follower is controlled by the Wizard, and that Sacrifice of Form discards the followers, since they are non-item cards controlled by the Wizard.

Dirhaval
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Post by Dirhaval » Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:35 pm

I find no fault with Highwayman's agrument. I actually like it too.

BUT.... the following hazard has the same text and several members have agreed that the followers are also discarded.
EXILE OF SOLITUDE
One strike of an at home manifestation of any unique Dragon can attempt to capture a non-Wizard character. This strike's prowess is modified by -1. If this strike is successful, it forces the discard of the character (with no body check) and all cards he controls.
Alternatively, all strikes of Earcaraxe at Home attempt to capture all non-Wizard characters defending against her strikes.
so, if we all want to change the meaning of non-item cards, than I am for that.
My logic with discarding the followers with Sacrifice and Exile is this:
If your 'leader' was snatched by a dragon or your Wizard dies, do you want to stick around and want for more trouble? I would not stick around either. I will run, run, run. The Fellowship was dishearted when Gandalf fell.
If you do use Sacrifice, you should be prepare to not have 10 DI for a while, if not, then you will lose your heroes anyway.

Dirhaval

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Post by Zarathustra » Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:57 pm

Please take note that the minion Arkenstone says "(and all non-follower cards he controls)," but that Sac of Form does not.  This is the reason for the ruling that Sac of Form forces you to discard the wizard's followers.

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Post by Jambo » Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:04 pm

Zarathustra wrote:Please take note that the minion Arkenstone says "(and all non-follower cards he controls)," but that Sac of Form does not.  This is the reason for the ruling that Sac of Form forces you to discard the wizard's followers.
Good point.  

How does SoF interact with the crf?
crf wrote:Discard
- Whenever a character is discarded, all non-follower cards played with that character are also discarded.
Old Road doesn't trump the restriction of playing factions during the site phase.  Should SoF trump this crf entry?

Cheers
Last edited by Jambo on Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Highwayman attacks! - Sacrifice of Form

Post by Muad'Dib » Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:28 pm

Secondly, the CRF and MEBA (the last and most up-to-date ICE made rules) say:
CRF wrote:Discard
- Whenever a character is discarded, all non-follower cards played with that character are also discarded.
MEBA wrote:Discarding Cards
When a card leaves active play (discarded, eliminated, returned to owner's hand, etc.), discard all cards played on it.
You should remember that in MEBA is written ".. played on it" and followers aren't played on wizard but under him  8)

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Post by Wacho » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:05 pm

The CRF entry is a general rule.  This can and is modified by the cards themselves.

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Post by |Highwayman| » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:05 pm

Zarathustra wrote:Please take note that the minion Arkenstone says "(and all non-follower cards he controls)," but that Sac of Form does not.  This is the reason for the ruling that Sac of Form forces you to discard the wizard's followers.
as I said:
Highwayman wrote:And thirdly - minion Arkenstone is a good example of how things should work, as there is no mention on it's card that character followers of the discarded dwarf should be spared - the CRF entry I quoted above handles that nicely.
Why did The Arkenstone get an errata is beyond me - probably just an extra, unnecessary text (like the 'site does not tap' bit on That Ain't No Secret - it's obvious that event's played on a site do not tap it unless it is said so in their texts')
Why the heck is signature text limited to only 150 characters now?

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Post by |Highwayman| » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:34 pm

I don't think we're done here - are we???
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Post by Bandobras Took » Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:02 pm

|Highwayman| wrote:I don't think we're done here - are we???
Of course not; I'm waiting for your response to my quote from the Middle Earth rules that clearly states that followers are controlled by a character.

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Post by |Highwayman| » Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:45 am

Bandobras Took wrote:Of course not; I'm waiting for your response to my quote from the Middle Earth rules that clearly states that followers are controlled by a character.
and I was waiting for Mark's response :P
Bandobras Took wrote:
MELE Rulebook wrote:Direct Influence

Some characters have a direct influence attribute of one or more. If such a character's direct influence is greater than or equal to another one of your characters' mind attribute, he may take control of that other character, who then becomes a follower of the controlling character.
I don't think there's any other way to read it than that a follower is controlled by the Wizard, and that Sacrifice of Form discards the followers, since they are non-item cards controlled by the Wizard.

right...
there's really nothing new that I can say...

this blows away my 1st argument but what about the other 2?
CRF and MABA rules make this distinction, so that whenever the controlling character is discarded his/hers followers stay alive
and
Minion Arkenstone in it's default version was worded exactly the same as Sacrifice and the Arkenstone errata isn't really necessary as CRF and later MEBA rules cover this
Why the heck is signature text limited to only 150 characters now?

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Post by Majagua_the_Necromancer » Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:38 pm

am i missing something? isn´t there a ruling about the Sacrifice of Form, that states that only-non follower cards are the ones to be discarded?

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Post by miguel » Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:14 pm

Majagua_the_Necromancer wrote:am i missing something? isn´t there a ruling about the Sacrifice of Form, that states that only-non follower cards are the ones to be discarded?
No such ruling.

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Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:54 pm

CRF and MABA rules make this distinction, so that whenever the controlling character is discarded his/hers followers stay alive
So cards like Abductor and Giant Spiders, when they discard a character, also discard non-follower cards controlled by them.  This is the general rule -- unless a card text overrides it.
Minion Arkenstone in it's default version was worded exactly the same as Sacrifice and the Arkenstone errata isn't really necessary as CRF and later MEBA rules cover this
No, they don't cover it.

The errata on the Minion Arkenstone was a necessity because otherwise it would work in exactly the same manner as Sacrifice of Form as far as discarding.  Sacrifice's text is not only directing the discard of the Wizard -- it is also directly discarding every non-item card the wizard controls as part of its text.  This is not a side effect of the wizard being discarded; it is an effect of the card itself.

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